Dear Ali Sina, In regrads
to your challenge on faithfreedom.org
Because some of your views are very akin to my own, I thought I would share with you where I am in my quest for the truth. I am trying to ponder and make sure what i am doing is truly what I believe. Although it would be easy for me to become a moral atheist, something inside me denies me from becoming that. The world has its ills, yes, but it is too ordered and structured not to have a controlling force behind it. There is no question the Quran and hadith have many problems but maybe the “uncorrupted” state we were taught was never true. Or it all has to do with interpretation of the original arabic. This seems quite likely to me. You question Muhammad’s prophethood by some of his actions, but like you said youself, Joshua did far worse in the bible. However please answer me these regarding his character:
1) He was offered wealth, status as king, women and many other worldly items by the Meccan leadership in exchange to stop his preaching. Why did he refuse?
2) He fought alongside his own men in battles and was himself injured. Why did he do that if he was egocentric? You will never see a modern day leader in charge of an army put himself in harms way.
3) Was he not illiterate by all accurate unbiased accounts? Why did he wait till age 40 to start such a hard and difficult task of change the entire views of a pagan society?
4) If he liked beuatiful young woman, why were most of his wives old and divorced? If he was a pedophile as you claim because of Ayesha’s age, I never heard of a pedophile only being with one child. Why didnt he marry and surround himself with several?
5) Why does he validate Moses and Jesus so much. He continued to do this even after problems with the Jewish tribes and Christians. The story of Moses and pharoah is the most repeated in the Quran? At the end of time, he said Jesus would return, not him. He stated all prophets wer on equal footing to himself. He states that every prophet including himself was “touched” by Satan except Jesus. Why wouldnt he say this about himself if he was a fake narcissist as you claim?
6)He forbade pictures and glorifying of himself. He wanted people to worship only God and not him. Does this sound like a self-absorbed egotist?
7) When he was victorious and return to take over Mecca, he declared general amnesty for all who had previously fought him. Is this the merciless maurader you are talking about?
8 ) Even after accumulating wealth, he slept on a mattress of palm fibers on the floor of his small house and chose a life of poverty. Anything hypocritical here?
9) He constantly helped his wives with household chores. His final speech makes mention to treat the womanfolk well and that the best man is the one who is best to his wife. I know you are well versed in these hadiths. Is this the chauvinist you are talking about?
Now, I am not saying this proves his prophethood to you. But if I was sitting in a jury box, in modern day america, it adds enough reasonable doubt that I cannot deny that he could have been.
So maybe I dont get the $50,000 reward, but if you cannot explain away these questions with logic, you’ll have to send me a check for at least $25 grand.
Be well and take care, SS AKA “the challenge winner”
Dear SS the self adjudicated challenge winner,
Yes indeed the universe has its order. That is why Einstein said, God does not play dice. Of course Einstein was talking about God in an allegorical way. What he meant was that universe is governed by laws. This is agreed by all scientists. However, what is not agreed by everyone is whether there is a lawmaker. We can envision that natural laws can exist on their own, but it when we talk about a law maker, the question that arises is who made this lawmaker.
However, this is not my argument and in no ways I want to convince people in becoming atheists. I have said it time and again that atheism does not make humans better. Atheists also have committed horrendous crimes and have shown they can be evil.
What can elevate people is consciousness not beliefs. Consciousness comes with maturity and it has nothing to do with beliefs. So if you wish to believe in a creator, I will respect your choice. Believers or unbelievers are the same to me. I have no preference. I pick my friends from among those who have evolved enough to know not to harm others. This is often the question of psychological health and not religion.
Yes I said Joshua committed heinous crimes. But did I say that I believe he was a prophet of God? I actually believe that Moses, Joshua and many ancient personages of the Old Testament were myths. Jews made up these stories in captivity to make their youths feel better and endure the tyranny of their captors. This is not just a mere opinion. There is plenty of evidence that prove this claim.
Assuming Joshua was real, he would have been a war criminal no better than Genghis Khan. By the same token Muhammad was also a criminal. It makes no sense to follow one criminal because another group holds another criminal as a prophet.
Furthermore, Jews do not follow Joshua. He is a historic figure, like Omar or Abu Bakr and not someone to follow. Muslims follow Muhammad to the tee. There lies the problem.
Now let me answer your questions.
1) He was offered wealth, status as king, women and many other worldly items by the Meccan leadership in exchange to stop his preaching. Why did he refuse?
Who said Muhammad was offered any of these things? This claim was made only by him and he was a pathological liar.
People of Mecca laughed at him and thought he is a mad man. Why would they want to lavish a mad man with so much gifts? Has it ever happened anywhere that someone claims to be a prophet and people who think he is crazy offer him wealth and women? Come on please. Why is it so hard for Muslims to be rational? No one offered Muhammad any wealth. He lied, just as he lied about being persecuted and the Meccans plotting to kill him. Please read my book and see how I have debunked all these claims.
2) He fought alongside his own men in battles and was himself injured. Why did he do that if he was egocentric? You will never see a modern day leader in charge of an army put himself in harms way.
Obviously you have not read Muhammad’s biographies. Please read the books of Tabari, Ibn Sa’d and al Moghazi of Waqidi. Muhammad never fought personally in any battle. He ordered 74 or 78 raids (depending which historian you believe) in 27 of those raids he himself participated, but he stood behind his men, wearing two coats of mail that made him so heavy that he could not walk. All he did was gather dust from the ground and throw it in the direction of his enemies while cursing them. In Ohod he did not have enough men, so he sent everyone to the front leaving no one to protect him. Someone came and found him hiding between two rocks. He hit him with his sword but his heavy armors protected him. He shouted for help and his men arrived and the Quraishi escaped. There he lost a tooth. Courage is not a quality that distinguished Muhammad at no moment in his life. Even in the war of Sacrilege, when he was twenty years old, all he did was collect the arrows during the cease fires and hand them to his uncles. That coward never put his life in danger. Not even once. But he gave fiery speeches promises his followers all sorts of rewards if they die in the battle field.
3) Was he not illiterate by all accurate unbiased accounts? Why did he wait till age 40 to start such a hard and difficult task of change the entire views of a pagan society?
Muhammad had a hallucination at the age forty. He thought he was demon possessed. His co-depended wife convinced him that he had become a prophet. I have explained the psychological state of Muhammad and what let him to believe in his hallucinations in my book. Countless people write to challenge me. I ask them to read my book first. Those of them who agree and read it either don’t write back or write to say they have left Islam.
4) If he liked beuatiful young woman, why were most of his wives old and divorced? If he was a pedophile as you claim because of Ayesha’s age, I never heard of a pedophile only being with one child. Why didnt he marry and surround himself with several?
Muhammad’s wives were all teenagers or in their early twenties. The oldest one was Sauda. No mention of her age is made. But Ibn Sa’d in Tabaqat V.8 says she died during the rule of Muaviyah in the year 54 Hijra. We know that Muhammad married Sauda about 40 days after the death of Khadijah, i.e. three years before Hijra. So Sauda died 57 years after she married Muhammad.
What is the normal age of a person? Sauda was a big fat woman. Often overweigh people don’t live long. But let us say she died at the age of eighty. 80-57=23 So Sauda was 23 years old when she married Muhammad who was 50 years old at that time. If Sauda died at the age of 90, which is unlikely, she must have been 33 years old when she married the 50 year old Muhammad.
Now let me quote a hadith reported by Ibn Sa’d to debunk the claim that Muhammad married old women for their protection.
“Barra narrated that the prophet sent message to Sauda that I have divorced you. When Sauda heard the news, she went and sat in the way of the Prophet to Aisha’s house. When she saw the prophet she told him. I swear thee by the one who has sent you the Quran and has exalted you over all the creation to tell my why did you divorce me. Have I done something wrong that has offended you? The Prophet said no! Sauda said, I then beg you for the sake of the same God to not divorce me. I am getting old I don’t need to be with a man. You can use my turn to stay with Aisha, but I wish that in the day of resurrection to be counted amongst your wives. The Prophet agreed and Sauda said that since then the Prophet spent the nights there were her turn with his favorite wife Aisha.” [Tabaqat V. 8 p. 53-54 Persian translation]
Sauda was not old for Muhammad. She was half his age. However, she was much older than his other wives who were 40 to 44 years younger than him.
Sauda was a big woman and not very attractive. So Muhammad wanted to get rid of her to spend more time with his petite younger wives.
How could Sauda survive on her own in that society? She thought that as long as she remains nominally a wife of Muhammad her material needs will be taken care of – and in fact they were. The same historian tells us that the share of Sauda from the loot of the Khaibar was 80 camel load of dates and 20 camel loads of barley or wheat.
From every loot the wives of Muhammad received their share of goods and slaves. Omar, during his caliphate Sauda a sack filled with Dirhams (Probably the proceeds of the loot from Persia or Egypt). Sauda asked, what is this? They said it is Dirhams. She said Subhanallah, they send me money in a sack of dates?” [Tabaqat V. 8 p. 55]
I can write a book about the sexual life of Muhammad. This man had no respect for women. He used them like an object and disposed of them when they no longer satisfied his animalistic needs. Muslims are so ignorant of the truth about their prophet that is appalling.
5) Why did he validate Moses and Jesus so much? He continued to do this even after problems with the Jewish tribes and Christians. The story of Moses and pharoah is the most repeated in the Quran? At the end of time, he said Jesus would return, not him. He stated all prophets were on equal footing to himself. He states that every prophet including himself was “touched” by Satan except Jesus. Why wouldn’t he say this about himself if he was a fake narcissist as you claim?
Muhammad started his prophetic career in the footsteps of biblical prophets. He thought this would attract the Christians and the Jews. Once his dream was dashed he turned against the Jews, banished some and massacred others. However, he could not change his so called revelation of 13 years and start beating a different drum. He had to stick with Jesus and Moses. After he came to Medina and faced the rejection of the people of the Book, there is very little talk about Jesus and Moses in the Quran. Instead there is an unbounded vitriol against their followers.
Muhammad changed his qibla and started prying towards temple filled with idols. He called the Jews and Christians all sorts of names, but it was too late for him to change his story about being another prophet in the same line of biblical prophets.
6) He forbade pictures and glorifying of himself. He wanted people to worship only God and not him. Does this sound like a self-absorbed egotist?
You must definitely read my book. All your questions are answered there. Muhammad suffered from Acromegaly. This disease deforms the bones and cartilages. In the later years of his life he looked like a monster. Muhammad was a narcissist and his image meant a lot to him. He did not want people to draw his picture when he was so ugly and deformed. The prohibition of drawing his picture is not out of modesty but out of his fear of leaving an ugly image of himself for the posterity.
7)When he was victorious and returned to take over Mecca, he declared general amnesty for all who had previously fought him. Is this the merciless maurader you are talking about?
This was part of the deal for the Meccans to surrender with no fight. Abu Sufian accepted the deal to avoid bloodshed. Muhammad also knew that the Arab tribes that had accompanied him would not stay long if the fight gets bloody.
Despite his promises to not to kill anyone he sought ten Meccans who had mocked him many years ago, among them two dancing girls and killed them.
8) Even after accumulating wealth, he slept on a mattress of palm fibers on the floor of his small house and chose a life of poverty. Anything hypocritical here?
These are myths that have held Muslims hoodwinked. I have demystified the mystique of Muhammad in my book. Once you read it you’ll have answer to all these questions. Muhammad was a narcissist. Narcissists are master manipulators and when they put a show of piety or humility they do it in exaggeration. Please refer to my book for detailed explanation of Muhammad’s show of humility and his psychological make up.
9) He constantly helped his wives with household chores. His final speech makes mention to treat the womanfolk well and that the best man is the one who is best to his wife. I know you are well versed in these hadiths. Is this the chauvinist you are talking about?
Muhammad’s words and deeds were different. The narcissist has all the good advices for others but they consider themselves about those advices. Muhammad was not good to his wives. He beat even Aisha who was the youngest and most favorite of his wives. He divorced anyone who was not satisfying his sexual needs and threatened to divorce all of them when they were upset of him for sleeping with a maid, Maryah.
What they feed you as the history of Muhammad is all lies. You need to read the original books of history of Islam or read my book that is based on those stories to get the facts. So you don’t get $50,000, not $25,000 and not even one dollar. But if you ask for it, I will send you my book for free. After you read it and leave Islam, you may want to finance its translation to any language spoken by Muslims. It will only cost a few hundreds, but you’d be saving millions.
Cheers
Ali Sina
Source: http://www.faithfreedom.org/wordpress/?p=8816
IHS
Because some of your views are very akin to my own, I thought I would share with you where I am in my quest for the truth. I am trying to ponder and make sure what i am doing is truly what I believe. Although it would be easy for me to become a moral atheist, something inside me denies me from becoming that. The world has its ills, yes, but it is too ordered and structured not to have a controlling force behind it. There is no question the Quran and hadith have many problems but maybe the “uncorrupted” state we were taught was never true. Or it all has to do with interpretation of the original arabic. This seems quite likely to me. You question Muhammad’s prophethood by some of his actions, but like you said youself, Joshua did far worse in the bible. However please answer me these regarding his character:
1) He was offered wealth, status as king, women and many other worldly items by the Meccan leadership in exchange to stop his preaching. Why did he refuse?
2) He fought alongside his own men in battles and was himself injured. Why did he do that if he was egocentric? You will never see a modern day leader in charge of an army put himself in harms way.
3) Was he not illiterate by all accurate unbiased accounts? Why did he wait till age 40 to start such a hard and difficult task of change the entire views of a pagan society?
4) If he liked beuatiful young woman, why were most of his wives old and divorced? If he was a pedophile as you claim because of Ayesha’s age, I never heard of a pedophile only being with one child. Why didnt he marry and surround himself with several?
5) Why does he validate Moses and Jesus so much. He continued to do this even after problems with the Jewish tribes and Christians. The story of Moses and pharoah is the most repeated in the Quran? At the end of time, he said Jesus would return, not him. He stated all prophets wer on equal footing to himself. He states that every prophet including himself was “touched” by Satan except Jesus. Why wouldnt he say this about himself if he was a fake narcissist as you claim?
6)He forbade pictures and glorifying of himself. He wanted people to worship only God and not him. Does this sound like a self-absorbed egotist?
7) When he was victorious and return to take over Mecca, he declared general amnesty for all who had previously fought him. Is this the merciless maurader you are talking about?
8 ) Even after accumulating wealth, he slept on a mattress of palm fibers on the floor of his small house and chose a life of poverty. Anything hypocritical here?
9) He constantly helped his wives with household chores. His final speech makes mention to treat the womanfolk well and that the best man is the one who is best to his wife. I know you are well versed in these hadiths. Is this the chauvinist you are talking about?
Now, I am not saying this proves his prophethood to you. But if I was sitting in a jury box, in modern day america, it adds enough reasonable doubt that I cannot deny that he could have been.
So maybe I dont get the $50,000 reward, but if you cannot explain away these questions with logic, you’ll have to send me a check for at least $25 grand.
Be well and take care, SS AKA “the challenge winner”
Dear SS the self adjudicated challenge winner,
Yes indeed the universe has its order. That is why Einstein said, God does not play dice. Of course Einstein was talking about God in an allegorical way. What he meant was that universe is governed by laws. This is agreed by all scientists. However, what is not agreed by everyone is whether there is a lawmaker. We can envision that natural laws can exist on their own, but it when we talk about a law maker, the question that arises is who made this lawmaker.
However, this is not my argument and in no ways I want to convince people in becoming atheists. I have said it time and again that atheism does not make humans better. Atheists also have committed horrendous crimes and have shown they can be evil.
What can elevate people is consciousness not beliefs. Consciousness comes with maturity and it has nothing to do with beliefs. So if you wish to believe in a creator, I will respect your choice. Believers or unbelievers are the same to me. I have no preference. I pick my friends from among those who have evolved enough to know not to harm others. This is often the question of psychological health and not religion.
Yes I said Joshua committed heinous crimes. But did I say that I believe he was a prophet of God? I actually believe that Moses, Joshua and many ancient personages of the Old Testament were myths. Jews made up these stories in captivity to make their youths feel better and endure the tyranny of their captors. This is not just a mere opinion. There is plenty of evidence that prove this claim.
Assuming Joshua was real, he would have been a war criminal no better than Genghis Khan. By the same token Muhammad was also a criminal. It makes no sense to follow one criminal because another group holds another criminal as a prophet.
Furthermore, Jews do not follow Joshua. He is a historic figure, like Omar or Abu Bakr and not someone to follow. Muslims follow Muhammad to the tee. There lies the problem.
Now let me answer your questions.
1) He was offered wealth, status as king, women and many other worldly items by the Meccan leadership in exchange to stop his preaching. Why did he refuse?
Who said Muhammad was offered any of these things? This claim was made only by him and he was a pathological liar.
People of Mecca laughed at him and thought he is a mad man. Why would they want to lavish a mad man with so much gifts? Has it ever happened anywhere that someone claims to be a prophet and people who think he is crazy offer him wealth and women? Come on please. Why is it so hard for Muslims to be rational? No one offered Muhammad any wealth. He lied, just as he lied about being persecuted and the Meccans plotting to kill him. Please read my book and see how I have debunked all these claims.
2) He fought alongside his own men in battles and was himself injured. Why did he do that if he was egocentric? You will never see a modern day leader in charge of an army put himself in harms way.
Obviously you have not read Muhammad’s biographies. Please read the books of Tabari, Ibn Sa’d and al Moghazi of Waqidi. Muhammad never fought personally in any battle. He ordered 74 or 78 raids (depending which historian you believe) in 27 of those raids he himself participated, but he stood behind his men, wearing two coats of mail that made him so heavy that he could not walk. All he did was gather dust from the ground and throw it in the direction of his enemies while cursing them. In Ohod he did not have enough men, so he sent everyone to the front leaving no one to protect him. Someone came and found him hiding between two rocks. He hit him with his sword but his heavy armors protected him. He shouted for help and his men arrived and the Quraishi escaped. There he lost a tooth. Courage is not a quality that distinguished Muhammad at no moment in his life. Even in the war of Sacrilege, when he was twenty years old, all he did was collect the arrows during the cease fires and hand them to his uncles. That coward never put his life in danger. Not even once. But he gave fiery speeches promises his followers all sorts of rewards if they die in the battle field.
3) Was he not illiterate by all accurate unbiased accounts? Why did he wait till age 40 to start such a hard and difficult task of change the entire views of a pagan society?
Muhammad had a hallucination at the age forty. He thought he was demon possessed. His co-depended wife convinced him that he had become a prophet. I have explained the psychological state of Muhammad and what let him to believe in his hallucinations in my book. Countless people write to challenge me. I ask them to read my book first. Those of them who agree and read it either don’t write back or write to say they have left Islam.
4) If he liked beuatiful young woman, why were most of his wives old and divorced? If he was a pedophile as you claim because of Ayesha’s age, I never heard of a pedophile only being with one child. Why didnt he marry and surround himself with several?
Muhammad’s wives were all teenagers or in their early twenties. The oldest one was Sauda. No mention of her age is made. But Ibn Sa’d in Tabaqat V.8 says she died during the rule of Muaviyah in the year 54 Hijra. We know that Muhammad married Sauda about 40 days after the death of Khadijah, i.e. three years before Hijra. So Sauda died 57 years after she married Muhammad.
What is the normal age of a person? Sauda was a big fat woman. Often overweigh people don’t live long. But let us say she died at the age of eighty. 80-57=23 So Sauda was 23 years old when she married Muhammad who was 50 years old at that time. If Sauda died at the age of 90, which is unlikely, she must have been 33 years old when she married the 50 year old Muhammad.
Now let me quote a hadith reported by Ibn Sa’d to debunk the claim that Muhammad married old women for their protection.
“Barra narrated that the prophet sent message to Sauda that I have divorced you. When Sauda heard the news, she went and sat in the way of the Prophet to Aisha’s house. When she saw the prophet she told him. I swear thee by the one who has sent you the Quran and has exalted you over all the creation to tell my why did you divorce me. Have I done something wrong that has offended you? The Prophet said no! Sauda said, I then beg you for the sake of the same God to not divorce me. I am getting old I don’t need to be with a man. You can use my turn to stay with Aisha, but I wish that in the day of resurrection to be counted amongst your wives. The Prophet agreed and Sauda said that since then the Prophet spent the nights there were her turn with his favorite wife Aisha.” [Tabaqat V. 8 p. 53-54 Persian translation]
Sauda was not old for Muhammad. She was half his age. However, she was much older than his other wives who were 40 to 44 years younger than him.
Sauda was a big woman and not very attractive. So Muhammad wanted to get rid of her to spend more time with his petite younger wives.
How could Sauda survive on her own in that society? She thought that as long as she remains nominally a wife of Muhammad her material needs will be taken care of – and in fact they were. The same historian tells us that the share of Sauda from the loot of the Khaibar was 80 camel load of dates and 20 camel loads of barley or wheat.
From every loot the wives of Muhammad received their share of goods and slaves. Omar, during his caliphate Sauda a sack filled with Dirhams (Probably the proceeds of the loot from Persia or Egypt). Sauda asked, what is this? They said it is Dirhams. She said Subhanallah, they send me money in a sack of dates?” [Tabaqat V. 8 p. 55]
I can write a book about the sexual life of Muhammad. This man had no respect for women. He used them like an object and disposed of them when they no longer satisfied his animalistic needs. Muslims are so ignorant of the truth about their prophet that is appalling.
5) Why did he validate Moses and Jesus so much? He continued to do this even after problems with the Jewish tribes and Christians. The story of Moses and pharoah is the most repeated in the Quran? At the end of time, he said Jesus would return, not him. He stated all prophets were on equal footing to himself. He states that every prophet including himself was “touched” by Satan except Jesus. Why wouldn’t he say this about himself if he was a fake narcissist as you claim?
Muhammad started his prophetic career in the footsteps of biblical prophets. He thought this would attract the Christians and the Jews. Once his dream was dashed he turned against the Jews, banished some and massacred others. However, he could not change his so called revelation of 13 years and start beating a different drum. He had to stick with Jesus and Moses. After he came to Medina and faced the rejection of the people of the Book, there is very little talk about Jesus and Moses in the Quran. Instead there is an unbounded vitriol against their followers.
Muhammad changed his qibla and started prying towards temple filled with idols. He called the Jews and Christians all sorts of names, but it was too late for him to change his story about being another prophet in the same line of biblical prophets.
6) He forbade pictures and glorifying of himself. He wanted people to worship only God and not him. Does this sound like a self-absorbed egotist?
You must definitely read my book. All your questions are answered there. Muhammad suffered from Acromegaly. This disease deforms the bones and cartilages. In the later years of his life he looked like a monster. Muhammad was a narcissist and his image meant a lot to him. He did not want people to draw his picture when he was so ugly and deformed. The prohibition of drawing his picture is not out of modesty but out of his fear of leaving an ugly image of himself for the posterity.
7)When he was victorious and returned to take over Mecca, he declared general amnesty for all who had previously fought him. Is this the merciless maurader you are talking about?
This was part of the deal for the Meccans to surrender with no fight. Abu Sufian accepted the deal to avoid bloodshed. Muhammad also knew that the Arab tribes that had accompanied him would not stay long if the fight gets bloody.
Despite his promises to not to kill anyone he sought ten Meccans who had mocked him many years ago, among them two dancing girls and killed them.
8) Even after accumulating wealth, he slept on a mattress of palm fibers on the floor of his small house and chose a life of poverty. Anything hypocritical here?
These are myths that have held Muslims hoodwinked. I have demystified the mystique of Muhammad in my book. Once you read it you’ll have answer to all these questions. Muhammad was a narcissist. Narcissists are master manipulators and when they put a show of piety or humility they do it in exaggeration. Please refer to my book for detailed explanation of Muhammad’s show of humility and his psychological make up.
9) He constantly helped his wives with household chores. His final speech makes mention to treat the womanfolk well and that the best man is the one who is best to his wife. I know you are well versed in these hadiths. Is this the chauvinist you are talking about?
Muhammad’s words and deeds were different. The narcissist has all the good advices for others but they consider themselves about those advices. Muhammad was not good to his wives. He beat even Aisha who was the youngest and most favorite of his wives. He divorced anyone who was not satisfying his sexual needs and threatened to divorce all of them when they were upset of him for sleeping with a maid, Maryah.
What they feed you as the history of Muhammad is all lies. You need to read the original books of history of Islam or read my book that is based on those stories to get the facts. So you don’t get $50,000, not $25,000 and not even one dollar. But if you ask for it, I will send you my book for free. After you read it and leave Islam, you may want to finance its translation to any language spoken by Muslims. It will only cost a few hundreds, but you’d be saving millions.
Cheers
Ali Sina
Source: http://www.faithfreedom.org/wordpress/?p=8816
IHS
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